82 McArthur Genius Recipient and Author of 'Grit' Angela Duckworth: Part I. On Parenting

I am beyond thrilled to have Angela Duckworth as a guest on my podcast. She is most famous for her Ted talk ( > 23,432,260 views! ) and bestselling book — Grit, The Power of Passion and Perseverance. She's also actually brilliant, personable and generous. As a former math and science teacher in public schools in NYC, San Francisco and Philadelphia, Angela is passionate about sharing her research on strategies for success with educators and parents to help kids thrive.

Due to some technical issues and scheduling mixups, I ended up having not just one, but two conversations with Angela plus a speed round of Q&A from parents. Now that's what they mean when they say make "lemonade from lemons"!

The topics skipped around a bit so it made sense to split it up into 3 parts. This is part I where we talk about evidence based parenting that supports kids' growth and grit.

Angela Duckworth is the founder and CEO of Character Lab, a nonprofit whose mission is to advance scientific insights that help children thrive. She is also a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and in 2013 was named a MacArthur Fellow aka the genius grant recipient.

Angela shares research-backed advice for parents and teachers in her Tip of the Week. Sign up to receive it by email at https://angeladuckworth.com/

No Stupid Questions Podcast with Stephen Dubner and Angela Duckworth: https://freakonomics.com/nsq/

TRANSCRIPT:

Juna Bobby

I'm so grateful to have Angela Duckworth as my guest on this podcast. You've probably heard her name before, because her TED Talk is one of the most watched TED talks of all time. She is also the author of the well known book on Grit, the power of passion and perseverance. She's also actually brilliant, personable, and generous. As a former math and science teacher in public schools in New York City, San Francisco and Philadelphia, Angela became passionate about sharing her research on strategies for success with parents and educators to help kids thrive. Due to some technical issues and scheduling mix ups. I ended up having not just one, but two conversations with Angela, plus a round of q&a from parents. So I really lucked out. Anyway, the topic skipped around a bit so it kind of made sense to split it up into three parts. This is part one, where we talk about evidence based parenting that supports kids' growth, and grit.

Hi, Angela, how are you?

Angela Duckworth

I'm good. Thank you. Thank

Juna Bobby

you so much for being here today.

Angela Duckworth

I'm so happy to be here. I'm like happy for this conversation.

Juna Bobby

So Angela, I was listening to your podcast, No Stupid Questions, which you co host with Stephen Dubner, and I listened to that episode about how to raise likable kids.

Angela Duckworth

Yeah, I think somebody asked a question about brats. (Laughter) So we had to address it.

Juna Bobby

And I have to admit that I really loved that episode, because you described me.

Angela Duckworth

Okay, good. Great! (Laughter)

Juna Bobby

So if you wouldn't mind could you describe what you said on your podcast about the best type of parenting, according to research?

Angela Duckworth

Well, it's a pretty rock solid finding, I think that parents should be supportive and demanding at the same time, which sound like they're two different ends of one spectrum, like on the one hand, you can be supportive. On the other hand, you can be demanding and actually, for a long time, that is what parenting research, you know, contrast it like, either be supportive or be demanding, where is the magic spot on the continuum, but I think it's now clear that it's not two different ends of a continuum, it's actually like if you can imagine like an x and y axis. You want to be in the top right quadrant, which is like very demanding and very supportive. And what that means is that when you're a kid, and you didn't do something that you ought to have done, like clear the dishes or, you know, write a thank you note, then you tell them, you're you're falling short of what we need to do and like that's okay to be demanding. And at the same time, in many ways, you have to communicate to them that your love isn't contingent, that you're totally supportive that they know, they're the center of your universe and that you like them. So that's the combination it's very hard to do. But that is what we're all as parents, like you and me, are aiming for.

Juna Bobby

Uh huh. I am still honing these behaviors. And it's always a work in progress. But yes, that is my parenting style. And another thing you said that really resonated with me was when you said that we really need to respect and honor their opinions and dislikes.

Angela Duckworth

Support usually actually can be, like, sort of disaggregated into both being warm and loving, like, Oh my gosh, you're so wonderful, and respect for their autonomy. So if your kids, if they're of a certain age, you know, have different political views than you do, you know, or you know, different desires for what they want to do for their career or for their extracurriculars you respect that. Respect for autonomy means that you don't just impose your views on on them and having grown up in a Chinese American family, my parents are both from China, the idea that kids would be able to have their own opinions and values and preferences was... it was not the way my parents were raised, but it's the way I'm trying to raise my own kids.

Juna Bobby

And that includes who they want to date too

Angela Duckworth

Yeah. Marry. Yes. You know, and I married a white guy, so like, you know... Yeah. So there are all these, things that I think are frankly hard for a lot of parents to really give their kids autonomy. My parents, by the way, got much better, much, much better as they as they got older and wiser... about how to give their kids more autonomy.

Juna Bobby

I think it's also really important to be consistent, right? Having consistent parenting styles and expectations.

Angela Duckworth

Yeah, it's about consistency. It's also not about perfection. I mean, I don't think we need to model for our kids that we get everything right, which I know most parents are like, Oh, I am so far from perfect. But, um, but I think it's okay to feel okay about that. Right? Like, you know, if your kids go to bed at night thinking like, my mom and my dad love me, they respect me. And they want me to grow. They don't need me to be perfect, like, I'm still evolving, then I think your kids are going to be fine. They don't have to go to bed thinking my mom and dad are perfect.

Juna Bobby

And it's never too early to admit to your kids that we're human. And not perfect. Yes.

Angela Duckworth

Yeah. Never too early. Never too late.

Juna Bobby

And what about your daughters? They're so sweet. When I saw them jump on and introduce you.

Angela Duckworth

sweet. Okay, so we have we have teenage girls in our house. I think they're capable of being sweet, that pandemic is wearing on all of us. We're all ready to not be quarantining together.

Juna Bobby

And are you teaching them about grit all the time? Like, I'm always teaching my kids about resilience.

Angela Duckworth

You know, I think they, you know, it's interesting, my daughters have both actually said to me that, there's a lot of pressure in this house, right, to achieve. And I said, why, I literally don't even ask for your report cards. I never said it, but yeah, it's so implicit, right? It's just, you know, how could you not feel that pressure. My husband and I work really hard, and we're not really relaxed people. We don't chill out that much. We don't hang out that much. So I think I'm teaching them through example. And, I think I am sometimes dropping little mini lectures, for example, learning to practice piano — what it they were, you know, informed of the research on different kinds of practice, and what kind of practice is most effective? So yeah, I guess you could argue that I'm teaching them. Now my high school senior is finishing out her remote senior year. We'll see what happens by the end of the year. And yeah, and then I'll be an empty nester. One of them's in college. One of them's going to college.

Juna Bobby

Where's she going?

Angela Duckworth

She's going to Harvard.

Juna Bobby

Okay, wow congratulations! My son is there so they can hang out? Or not? No one's allowed to hang out because of Covid. Are you happy that she's um, she's obviously a high achiever.

Angela Duckworth

I guess I'm happy.

Juna Bobby

There's nothing wrong with being a high achiever.

Angela Duckworth

I don't think there's any apologies for that. Yeah, she's great. And she's very intense. And she's really passionate about, I mean, 18 year olds should be given a lot of freedom to change their minds and change their direction. But she's currently very passionate about kids and education and public education. So I am really excited. She is taking a class this fall from the person who was, you know, among the most influential in my education, so the person that I, whose name is Kay Merseth. I took her class, and I was like, education. I'm going to do education. And now my daughter's taking her classes. It's nice to come full circle. I think they're both trying to figure out you know, different things. I think, the younger one wants to figure out what she's interested in. I was just talking to her this morning at breakfast, and I said, you know at your age, it's really rare to really have very specific and narrow interests. It's not developmentally typical to know what you want to do.

Juna Bobby

But some people do, right?

Angela Duckworth

Absolutely some people do. But I just want to say like out of 1000 kids, how many kids know when they're 17 what they're going to be doing when they're 37? No 17 year old should feel like oh, no, I don't know what I'm gonna do. That's not what your job is. When you're 17, your job is to be sampling a lot of things. Try to learn and do as well as you can, but you shouldn't think oh, gosh, I don't know what I'm doing with my life. You're 17! Of course you don't know what you're doing with your life!

Juna Bobby

Yes. My next question for you, Angela, is something that's on my mind. And a lot of other parents minds.

Angela Duckworth

You can ask me anything you want.

Juna Bobby

If you had to pick three top traits that you would want a teenager or a kid, or anyone for that matter, to have in these challenging times that we're in right now, what would they be? Which overlaps with the question —— what components of grit do you think are the most important? For example, grit has components of let's say, curiosity, and in your book Grit, you talk about passion and purpose. And what about humor? and compassion?

Angela Duckworth

Yeah, maybe I'll broaden your question to character. So it's not a word that everyone loves. But I think you know, when Aristotle and Maria Montessori and Martin Luther King Jr, used the word character, I think they meant it broadly to be, you know, the the person that you show up in the world is everything that you think, feel and do, that can benefit other people, at least as much as it benefits you. So if I broaden that out, then it's not just grit.

I'll give you my, three part answer for how to lead a good life, at least according to the scientific research that I know about.

So one is this, I'll just start with the most important. I do think you have to have a good heart, right? And these are character strengths that you could pick which of these like, you know, you really want to make yours, but gratitude, kindness, generosity, social intelligence, but they're really about like connecting with other people. So if you want to lead a good life, I think absolutely, you have to have a way to connect with other people in a way that clearly puts them first.

The second thing is strengths of mind, like curiosity, like you said, also imagination and creativity, intellectual humility, decision making, these are all, you know, mental strengths that I think, you know, you have to find a way to always have a fertile, learning, open mind.

And then the third thing is what I study, grit.

And I kind of gave it to you in the order that I even think that they're important, right? Like heart, mind, and will, the things that I study, like delayed gratification, self control, goal setting, planning, grit, optimism, and I think those are important too. But I think if you asked me like, as a mom, or as just a human, like, you know, when you wake up in the morning, what are you trying to do? What do you want your kids to try to do? I hope they spend every day in some way exercising a strength of heart, a strength of mind? And yeah, maybe in bronze medal place a strength of will.

I think heart first. And we all know that if we give other people our hearts, it also helps us. You know, my mom is 85. And she has been a model for me of somebody who is literally the kindest person I've ever met. And she is somebody that I will say, the universe always takes care of Theresa Lee. And I think that if you're like that kind and that kind of, you know, completely generous.. She doesn't think like, Oh, I do this for Juna then she'll do this for me, which is nice. Other people will and they always have like, rushed to take care of her. So, you know, I think when you are somebody who has like a lot of heart, I mean, I don't want you to be a doormat, but I think in general it's a good rule to live life by, to help other people and you don't have to worry about yourself, other people take care of you.

Juna Bobby

So it sounds like she had that amazing, boundless, giving kindness without any sort of resentment. Where do you think she got this?

Angela Duckworth

You know, that's such a good question. Um, she was an immigrant, right? So she was the oldest of 13 kids —— those generations where people like literally lost count of how many kids there were. She immigrated here from China. When she describes her own mother so my grandmother, you know, my grandmother was many things but I don't think she was infinitely kind. Here's my guess —— we begin down a path, and then there's path dependency. You know, I think my mother's kindness, it was rewarded in some way, like when she was a kid. And I think my mom probably had some kind inclinations that were rewarded, you know, people smiled back and thanked her for whatever nice thing she did so with our own kids, yours, mine, anyone's, I think we can think how do we get kids onto a cycle that's positive, because I do think those positive cycles exist.

Juna Bobby

That was Angela Duckworth. She's the founder and CEO of Character Lab, a nonprofit whose mission is to advance scientific insights that help children thrive. She's a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania. And in 2013, she was named a MacArthur Fellow, aka the Genius Grant.

I learned so much from this conversation. Angela says that modeling is one of the most important ways that kids learn from us. And we've all heard this before. But how we act speaks volumes. And kids really pick it up, and they start to mirror how we handle situations, how we handle setbacks and failures, how we manage our emotions, but it's not what you might be thinking. It's not that we don't show our vulnerabilities. It's that they know that after the storm, after we cry, or shout or have our little breakdowns, or big breakdowns, that we can say we're sorry, that we can share what we learned from our difficult experience, and that they can see us get back up, even maybe to a level higher than before. That's modeling resilience.

We're all human with emotions, and we make mistakes. The most important thing to model is that we can move forward, even with all our imperfections, and that in the next moment, or next day, there's always another chance to do things differently. With a new curiosity, and the joy of learning new things.

Angela shares research backed advice for parents and teachers in her Tip of the Week, so sign up to receive it in the links below. You'll also find links to her website, her TED talk, and to her podcast "No Stupid Questions".

Coming up, Episode #83, we talk about some of the things that really inspire Angela.

In the meantime, go to mindbodyspace.com where you can sign up for our newsletter and get extra tips on resilience and peak performance. Please share this podcast with anyone who needs an extra boost of resilience. Until next time, wishing you and your family wellness.